Turned Around

1. Mark 5.24.06 / 7am

   Funny video, however it losts it’s credibility in the opening line. They arent comming over here to escape an oppresive regime. They are comming over here to live the American way of life and the American dream without having to contribute back to society or adopt the “American” way, rather they are expecting us to bend to accommodate them by using the guise of racism.

   But i dont think the racism thing became front line ammunition just because of the immigration problem. I think most liberals like to throw it around to try and scare people into agreeing with them.

   I do like that buffalo though, he is funny. And the part where they are playing craps is awesome.
2. Michael 5.24.06 / 9am

   They are coming over here to live the American way of life and the American dream without having to contribute back to society or adopt the “American” way, rather they are expecting us to bend to accommodate them by using the guise of racism.

   Come on dude. How can you possibly speak to the motivation for 20 million people? And what is the “American dream”? Isn’t it the opportunity to make a better life for yourself through hard work? And isn’t that exactly what the Mexican immigrants are doing – trying to make a better life for themselves?

   I’ll concede the word “racism” is too charged to be used in this debate so let’s call it extreme prejudice. When you oppose an entire group of people from entering your country and that opposition is not based on any real (rational) threat to you personally but instead is based completely on broad generalizations peppered with symbolic references (ex. “American way of life”) then, my friend, you are demonstrating extreme prejudice against that group.

   I’d appreciate hearing thoughtful opposition to the immigration situation framed in terms of “I’ll lose my job to these immigrants working for lower wages” or “statistics show that a disproportionate number of Mexican immigrants end up in jail” or even “twenty years of evidence leads me to believe the majority Mexican immigrants have no desire to assimilate into our society”.

   Instead all I hear from you and from others I’ve heard that oppose reforming our immigration laws is one of two arguments. There’s the Carson from South Park you-will-respect-my-authoriti argument which boils down to “they’re breaking (disrespecting) our laws so let’s line ‘em up and shoot ‘em or at least send ‘em packing”. Or there’s the popular “they don’t deserve (aren’t good enough) to be Americans” argument which is clearly based in fear and/or “extreme prejudice”.

   My question (rhetorical, but I’m sure you’ll respond) to immigration reform opponents is, what is your real opposition to reforming the immigration laws into something that actually works and is enforceable?

   Aren’t these opponents, and not the immigrants, actually trying to change America into something else? After all, what is America (the land of opportunity) when you remove the opportunity?
3. Mark 5.24.06 / 11am

   “what is your real opposition to reforming the immigration laws into something that actually works and is enforceable?”

   I have no oppsosition to reforming the laws. None at all. Right now the laws stink but until they are changed to become more manageable, I think immigrants coming into this country should respect and abide by them.

   “And isn’t that exactly what the Mexican immigrants are doing – trying to make a better life for themselves?”

   How can YOU speak for the motivation or 20 million immigrants? We both seem to agree that they want to come over to America to “make a better life for themselves.” I couldnt agree more. They are. However, what makes life in America so much “better” than life in Mexico. Our Economy? Our Freedom? Our “Way of Life”? All of which are made possible by our, all be it most of the time cumbersome and slow, governing bodies and law makers. How can you expect to take advantage of all this land has to offer when you arent even willing to abide by the rules that made it great? You can expect this because there are plenty of American’s out there that are way too “touchy/feely” and dont want the poor illeagal immigrant to feel unloved.

   “I’ll lose my job to these immigrants working for lower wages”

   I have no fear of loosing my job to these immigrants. I know it sounds very “sure of myself” but coming fresh over the border I dont think they could do what I do. Now before you go all “wounded knee” on me there cheif, I will say that anyone coming over the border does have the capacity and probably the will to learn as much if not more than me, thus pushing me out of my job. But I have no fear of that happening. Why? Because that would cause them to legally get a job and pay taxes in the form of an actual trackable paycheck. I have no opposition to them doing the manual labor that I feel most America’s dont want to do. They are skilled and they do it well. However, and i consider this a “thoughtful opposition” to the subject, while they are working hard building houses, cutting lawns, etc…Where are their children? Where? I’l tell you where, in the local school system taking advantage of my tax dollars. Overfilling schools to the point of children must go to schools in trailors in the parking lots. Increasing local governments debts becuase they are not “putting in on this man!”

   Hell, they are even trying to make it legal for them to collect on Social Security. Ha..there aint even enough for you and me, and we paid for the goddamn thing. But hey, as long as we open our arms and dont hurt any feelings. Im not even aloud to choose on Social Security, the government STEALS part of my paycheck every week, puts it into an account that I wont even be able to take advantage of and now wants to give it to these invaders.

   “statistics show that a disproportionate number of Mexican immigrants end up in jail”

   Read the bill, the entire first page is about new laws and agencies that are going to have to be put in place to keep them from breaking more laws. Do you think it was just “space filler” before they turned in their report, like we did in high school. No! They actually did the research and DO believe they will break laws. Much like the ones they are breaking now, by simply being over here.

   “After all, what is America (the land of opportunity) when you remove the opportunity?”

   No one has removed the opportunity. It is there, you just have to approach it leagally.

   I ask you…What is America (the land of opportunity) when all the opportunity is given away to criminals? Opportunity is not FREE, as much as we like to believe it is. It comes with a price. I we pay for it. Our parents paid for it, your children will pay for it. However, these immigrants will take advantage of it.

   Remember when we all went to Cancun on the cruise ship. Remember how much it sucked waiting in line to get on and off the ship. We could have just jumped over the side and swam to the docks. But we waited in line, showed are credintials and did things the right way. Why should they be any different?
4. Michael 5.24.06 / 12pm

   However, what makes life in America so much “better” than life in Mexico. Our Economy? Our Freedom? Our “Way of Life”?

   I think they come here because they can’t get a job in Mexico. They’re a democracy too so I think the freedom argument doesn’t hold up and I can’t comment on our “way of life” because I don’t know what that means…fatter citizens, more TV, what? Our “way of life” is a symbolic reference used to mask the absence of an argument. It’s like wearing an American flag shirt while you’re building a fence on the border – it’s meant to trigger some commonality and elicit sympathy with the observer.

   I ask you…What is America (the land of opportunity) when all the opportunity is given away to criminals? Opportunity is not FREE, as much as we like to believe it is. It comes with a price. I we pay for it. Our parents paid for it, your children will pay for it. However, these immigrants will take advantage of it.

   What is the price for opportunity and how much did you pay it? And when you say they’re trying to take advantage of opportunity what does that even mean? Isn’t opportunity meant to be taken advantage of? What gives you the right to deny somebody the same opportunity that your ancestors benefited from (for FREE)?

   Bottom line is that I still haven’t heard any rational reason to oppose immigration reform. You’re playing the “they need to respect our laws” argument which isn’t a solution, it’s more of a complaint. You’ve got 20 million people coming here to work jobs that we won’t do and you standing on the border tapping your foot, shaking your head, with your hands on your hips saying “respect our laws, seriously” isn’t going to address the problem that the laws are flawed to begin with. The Senate bill forces the illegal immigrants already in the US to pay a fine for breaking our immigration law. Is that not restitution enough given the severity (lack thereof) of the crime? If you’re ticketed for speeding should your license be permanently revoked? Probably not.
5. Mark 5.24.06 / 2pm

   Well you just keep working those long hard hours over there and enjoy paying for the poor little immigrants retirement. I have given you my arguments over and over again and like every other liberal, no matter what the argument you try to turn it into a one liner.

   “You’re playing the ‘they need to respect our laws’ argument.”

   Yes they need to respect our laws, but that is not the whole of it..but if that is all you want to hear, that is fine. I hope you kept your “Churros e’ Chocolate” book from high school. Your children are going to need it. Oh Lay!
6. Michael 5.24.06 / 5pm

   Come on…name calling?

   You too quickly want to take sides and assume labels: you’re the conservative and I’m the liberal. Labels get in the way of discussion because they color everyone’s opinion in broad generalized terms. The labels of liberal vs. conservative, for example, are so broad that they lose their meaning and in the end don’t really describe anything or anyone. Let’s not forget Bush supports the Senate bill which incresease the immigration quotas and allows all of those currently in the US a path to citizenship. I’m sure you wouldn’t say Bush is a liberal.

   As for the paying for their children, yes we are. We’re paying for their education because they are US citizens and that’s what they deserve. I support the Sentate bill because it requires illegals currently in the US to pay a fine and allows them to register as legal immigrants by increasing the number of permanent resident visas we give out to Mexican immigrants. Once they’re registered with the government they’ll be paying taxes and helping to pay for all of the services our government provides. I’m arguing to have them contribute by paying taxes – it sounds like you’re against that.

   If I misunderstood you’re argument please correct me. If I rephrase your argument correct me. But you can’t expect me make your argument for you – I can’t. I’m listening…what is your position/solution? What do you think should be done right now?
7. Mark 5.24.06 / 8pm

   Hola…You want my solution? Like to hear it? Here it go… I say keep them in their country until such a time that they can come over legally. If the laws in action now mean that the process takes 3 – 15 years, then oh well, thems the breaks. If next year the law changes and it only takes 3 months, then give yourself a high five and shout “Zans-Za-Bang”. But until then the law is set. After that I would pull out my checklist and go down the line as follows….

   1.Close the borders 2.Pass legislation calling for harsher penalties for any businesses that hire illegal aliens. 3.Heavily tax all wire transfers of money from illegal aliens back to their homelands 4.Change the law so that any child born from a mother in this country illegally does not automatically become an American citizen. That child will keep the citizenship of the mother. 5.Cut off all social services to illegal aliens except emergency services (im not a total dickhead)

   Every discussion we have had on the subject, I have stated that I want them to pay taxes. But now you say..

   “I’m arguing to have them contribute by paying taxes – it sounds like you’re against that.”

   You hear what you want to hear in order to quantify your argument. Go back to every discussion we have had and look, I have always stated they should pay taxes.

   “We’re paying for their education because they are US citizens and that’s what they deserve. “

   Are they U.S. Citizens? You mean no one has brought their kids over illegally? I didnt know that you knew that for a fact. But I suppose you do. I guess all those signs on the highways in Sand Diego, you know…the ones warning motorist of the Man, Woman, and CHILD crossing the highways as they invade our country, I guess they dont need the child on those. Cause they are already all citizens. They could have saved money on the paint on that sign. You had to buy one of those once, you remember how expesnive that was? Anyways, rushing across the border without permission is not immigration. It’s trespassing at best.

   I think Bush is doing what every other politician would do. The fact that these invaders are going to become citizens in all but certain, so he is just leading the charge so that his party can win some votes.

   “If I misunderstood you’re argument please correct me. If I rephrase your argument correct me. But you can’t expect me make your argument for you – I can’t.”

   I have corrected you, I have re itterated my ponit over and over, but you still hear what you want. Now your trying to change my argument to a purely “taxation” argument. I dont think you misunderstood, I think you disect it, misconstrue it and use what you can in an effort against me. You know very well where I stand on the issue. I have never asked you to make my argument for me.

   Here is another solution for you…simply pass a law about illegal immigration that matches, word-for-word, the law in Mexico. Being in Mexico illegally is a crime, yet Mexico screams racism when we try to criminalize illegal aliens in this country. If our law read exactly the same as their law does, what would they say?
8. Michael 5.24.06 / 10pm

   I’m not trying to misconstrue anything you say. I’m just trying to follow you.

   1.Close the borders

   Since the borders are already closed I assume you mean hire and deploy enough troops/police and/or build enough fences to physically close the 8,000 miles of borders that surround our country. Do you really think that’s practical or even possible?

   2.Pass legislation calling for harsher penalties for any businesses that hire illegal aliens.

   Conspiracy to transport, harbor and induce illegal immigrants to reside in the USA for financial gain carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000 for each undocumented worker. What would you consider a harsher penalty?

   3.Heavily tax all wire transfers of money from illegal aliens back to their homelands

   You might be able to partially implement this if some form of state issued id was required to wire money and the person didn’t have counterfeit documents.

   4.Change the law so that any child born from a mother in this country illegally does not automatically become an American citizen. That child will keep the citizenship of the mother.

   So you’re suggesting repealing the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

   5.Cut off all social services to illegal aliens except emergency services (im not a total dickhead)

   Again, you might be able to partially implement this if some form of state issued id was required to wire money and the person didn’t have counterfeit documents.

   So let’s imagine your dream scenario.

   Congress appropriates the money to pay for enough fences and guards/police to physically close our 8,000 miles of borders. I’m betting that’s going to cost a whole hell of a lot of tax money.

   Congress increases the penalty for employers hiring illegal workers to 500,000 or 1,000,000 per worker, or whatever magic level proves to be an effective deterrent.

   Congress creates a national id system/card that is difficult to counterfeit and this id is required when applying for social services or wiring money.

   Finally, Congress passes a constitutional amendment that prevents children born in the US of illegal immigrants from becoming citizens.

   So let’s say, for the sake of argument, that all of this happens tomorrow, and let’s ignore, for a moment, the problem of what to do with the 20 million immigrants already here illegally and of the millions of children that have been born to illegal immigrants from all countries over the last 200 years. Let’s assume your utopia – no more illegal immigrants. After increasing taxes (probably significantly) to physically close the borders, after implementing a national id system, after toughening laws against employing illegal immigrants and after passing a constitutional amendment what have you accomplished? You’ve immediately stopped the construction, restaurant, and agriculture industries because you’ve slashed their workforce. You’ve hurt the economy. You’ve raised taxes. You’ve created a national id system. Was it worth it for you? Was it worth it for you to teach the law breakers a lesson? Was it worth it for everyone else? I don’t think so.

   Even ignoring the hard problems, what to do with the immigrants already here and what to do with children of illegal immigrants born in the US, the partial solutions you’ve offered aren’t practical. Reactionary solutions to difficult problems rarely are.

   So whether we think its “fair” that they’re here or not, in my opinion, isn’t relevant because the reality is that they are here and they’re going to continue coming here as long as our economy is better than Mexico’s – which will likely be sometime. So I suggest you come to terms with pressing 1 for English and you might even want to take some Spanish classes.

   If you think about the reality of the situation for a minute and consider that tougher laws, regulations, and enforcement solutions will be totally ineffective because they have proven to be and will continue to be impossible to implement and expensive to pay for, then I think you’re left with two options: keep spending tax money trying to do the same thing we’ve always been doing or come up with something new. I vote for something new. Not because I have a special affinity for Mexicans but because if the stove is hot after a while I stop touching it, but maybe that’s just me.

   The fact that you keep saying things like “pay their dues”, “opportunity isn’t free”, and “take advantage of our American way of life” leads me to believe you’re still in the first camp. Trust me on this one – the stove’s still hot.

   And you don’t need to take all of this personally. I have no problem with other people’s opinions, even if they’re wrong , but when I’m talking about finding solutions and common ground and your goal is to just vent some steam on whatever the issue du jour is today, well then I’m going to try to mentally decode what I think is your proposal out of your rants and if I get it wrong it’s not because I’m deliberately trying to twist your words against you it’s because what I started with was never really a proposal it was a rant.
9. Mark 5.25.06 / 5am

   your lucky we have 20+ years history together.
10. Colin 5.26.06 / 6am

    LOL…LMAO…you guys crack me up, and I can always get a good chuckle from reading the banter back and forth of the two of you when having a crappy day at work. I think you guys should get a TV show along the lines of the Odd Couple. What do you think?
11. Mark 5.26.06 / 7am

    Nah, Mike would want to employee an immigrant work crew on the set of the tv show.
12. Michael 5.26.06 / 9am

    We could call the show dumb and dumber.

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